Women have no business going to Ranger School. There! I said it-and I'll keep saying it. There are roles for men and women to play in society, and Mr. Kilcullen asks a very good question. Pity, no one will listen to him.
It has occurred to me that when the military dropped the combat exclusion-it lost any grounds it had to fight gays in the service. One of the things that really fires me up is the people who are pushing their daughters to do things they have no business doing ( like my Alabama neighbor-who we had dinner with when we were back there, whose daughter is in submarines and was one of the group the White House paid to fly up to DC. I had to keep quiet and bite my tounge, after all he was paying for dinner.)-and in the same breath oppose the end of Don't Ask Don't Tell. Sorry pal-you need to be opposed to both of them.
A Chief of the Boat said to me a couple of years ago. "You know what you have when you take away the esprit de corp and male camaraderie out of being a submariner? A shitty job with lousy pay…"
Skippy,
I agree with you on almost everything but as for this I am going to have to disagree. For those who are unaware, most commissioned US Army Ranger School graduates never serve in one of the Ranger battalions. The idea has been to provide a leavening of that small unit leadership experience across the force. In the enlisted ranks it is a higher percentage but it may only be for a single tour in one of the battalions and then the rest of the career is spent between the 10th MTN, 101st & 82nd. For enlisted it has been usual that only if there is an MOS in the battalion or staff does one get to go on assignment. For commissioned officers a certain number per slot are reserved for the support branches to reward the top graduates of the initial officer entry training. That is why you will see Ordnance and Quartermaster officers wearing a Ranger tab.
As for women attending? Well, I broke my kneecap on Day 4 so I never finished. I tip my hat to anyone who can attend and earn the tab. It will only make them a better leader and soldier and therefore a benefit to the Army.
I know of nothing about serving aboard ships but I can say, as retired Infantry officer, the last eleven years has shown numerous examples where women have served honorably and well in combat situtions. I am not calling for women in the Infantry wholesale but I do not think that women Soldiers who can succesfully complete Ranger school are bad for the Army.
But I think there are several points worth noting.
1) You are presuming the Army will not change the curriculum and compromise standards. I feel fairly certain they will-sooner than one would think. Then will come the quotas, wanting to have a certain percentage of female officers with Ranger Tabs and the Army wanting to tout its first all female Ranger event.
2) Mr Killcullen's main point is quite valid-"The military has changed many policies in recent years, based on individual self-interest masquerading as fairness and antidiscrimination. As we debate new policies, decision makers need to ask two simple questions: Is a proposed move good for the majority of service members? And does it improve or hinder our ability to execute our mission?" The issue has not been whether some women can do a job-its about whether they should. And whether the cost to the rest of society in the product that is produced is worth it. In that regard the past 20 years have proven that the costs involved have far exceeded any perceived benefit.
3) There has to be something left for men to be men anymore. The emasculation of American society continues apace. Again-it has come with a cost: women stopped being women. What the women want is not and should not be the issue. To put it bluntly-to hell with what they want. What makes the most sense for readiness.
4) And finally, as Spek pointed out, there are intangible things that just keep it from being worth doing for men anymore. Single Gender units make the most sense-because being in a military unit is not like a civilian job. In a proper world the military would not exist. Take away esprit de corps and replace it with diversity-and all you have is just a shitty job.
Now I have never been to Ranger school-and I am not so sure I could have finished it. Primarily because I never had any desire to do what they do. I never had any desire to be an Infrantry or any other type of Soldier. If it had not been Navy for me-it would have most probably been nothing. ( Maybe USAF).
Skippy,
To your points 3 & 4 let me offer something that I found out recently in the civilian world.
The sorority Alpha Kappa Alpha (AKA), is the oldest Black female sorority founded in 1908. Back then Blacks were not allowed to join white fraternities or sororities. AKA has been intergrated since the 40's wih members from other races. Since it is a private organization, it has the right to choose who they want to let in. The old saying from the past in the Black community was that you had to pass the "brown paper bag" test before a woman can join. What that means, if a womans skin complexion was darker than the bag, they wouldn't be let in (that is another whole dynamic to the Black community that many don't like to discuss). So for example, a woman like Lena Horne back in her days would be allowed with no problems, since she was very light skinned and had "good hair" while a person like Cicely Tyson would not. Bottom line was that they were selective.
Now, a group of homosexual men have formed a group called MIAKA, and have filed a lawsuit against AKA for discrimination for not allowing gay men to join. They have taken all of the mannerisms of the soroity, wearing their "pink & green" and acting just like them in all manners. AKA of course will not allow men to join, even if they are gay saying that there are other options for them like joining male fraternities.
But what is ironic is that AKA, along with other major Black organizations, like the NAACP and others stood in full solidarity with the repeal of DADT, and the fights for gays to be married. Now that the "chickens have come home to roost" they are beginning to say enough is enough.
I bring that to the discussion because it highlights your point #3, men in America are being emasculated. Never in my youth would a gay person actually sue to join a sorority. We have had gay members in our fraternity, but they kept it to themselves and never made it a defining point as to who they were, and if they wanted to stay in they kept that part of their life to themselves.
To your point #4, simple gender units, applies to this. Even though it is a civilian public service organization, it is one exclusively for women. Why would a man want to join it? It is an organization for women plain and simple.
Mixing genders is not all it is to be sometimes, and like it or not people need to realize that sometimes it is good to be seperated along those lines.
The South Koreans have a small, elite all female SOF unit. The NORKS, alledgedly, have SOF female units of HUNDREDS !!!!
Why? It was ascertained that elite female soldiers would be ideal for infiltration, sabotage etc since no one would suspect FEMALES of being as capable as men.
I understand the misogyny that permeates some of these posts. We SHOULD have the most capable people doing the jobs that the military requires irregardless of race, gender etc.
When my house is on fire I don't give a rats petard whether they are …..All I care about is that they do their job effectively..one would think thats COMMON SENSE,,
Skippy,
To summarize my previous post, the sorority was a private organization, which had their own selection criteria. Though they are not as extreme in their selection process now in regards to color discrimination, they are still a woman's only group. They backed all of the DADT repeals and the gay marriage demands, and believed that it was the military's responsibility to do "what was right and moral" for society.
Now they are going to be going to court to try to stop the same things that they said the military should be doing to their organization. I am not coming from a misoginst view point, but understand that in real life, things have a way of working that fits a certain order. Can women fight, yes they can. But is it a good idea to mix them in units like the Rangers and subs, no its not. Just my opinion. For those who say it is only fair, then I suggest you join in the lawsuit with those men who are suing to get into an woman's sorority, since according to you, it is "only fair." We keep talking about how the private industry to look fo the military to see the affects of social engineering, I think in this case, we in the military need to look at society and really see the ramifications of our actions.
I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is morally wrong for me to go to Orchard Towers and partake of the action, but yet I should be happy with gay service members openly serving and gay marriage. Who gets to decide which morals I have to obey, I thought that was between me and my maker.
Richard,
My experience with the Korean military and with their women in the military tends to belie your point. The ROK armed forces are still very much a man's world. Plus you hit an important point "all female". I bet, however there is no one mapping out a "career path" for these women and very few of them will stay for a full career. And at a meeting they will still be expected to serve tea.
It is not mysoginist to weep for the loss of the refining characteristics that women brought to society. Having women be more like men is not a victory-its a huge loss for the women and for the men.
The unit is the 707th (White Tigers) Special Mission Battalion, though this "battalion" appears to have less than 300 men of which MAYBE, less than a dozen female operators. It was formed in response to the perceived NORK threat as mentioned above. I don't think THESE women will be serving coffee(there seems to a starbucks on very corner) anytime soon.
How capable they are remains a mystery. If one believes the hype they appear to be well trained and are brought out to the media for the dog and pony show to show off their skills. There are youtube videos of them.