Far East Cynic

Libya

I don’t feel well tonight-for a wide variety of reasons. So hunkered down on the couch and watched Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. I was a whopping 14 years old when I saw that movie the first time in the theater.

And that movie and one of its opening scenes is probably a good analogy for our mistaken adventure in Libya:

“Think you used enough dynamite there, Obama?”

People who lecture in favor of intervention in Libya have lost all rights to complain about, in no random order:  the deficit, wasteful government spending, taxes that are too high, or the general no good that a neo colonial foreign policy accomplishes.

Lets cut to the chase-when we discard ideas about national soverignty and think we have a right intervene in the internal affairs of another soverign nation that is not threatening us in any way-then we are setting ourselves up for a much bigger disaster down the pike.

And as painful as it may be to admit, Khadaffi attacking his own people is an internal Libyan matter. Period end of statement. Just because the rebels did not win in a walk in the early innings-was no reason to impose the infield no- fly rule in order to prevent the other side from tying up the score.

It’s dumb-and mark my words-it is going to end up biting the US in the ass.

1) Khadaffi is not even a tenth rate threat to the United States.Maybe 20+ years ago when I was flying at or above the so-called line of death, participating in Operation “Taunt the MiGs to come out so we can shoot them down and get some air medals“-but he’s been pretty much in the box for the better part of ten years.

A guy writing for Fallows at the Atlantic sums it up well:

Up to 17 February 2011, we were perfectly happy with Muhammar Qaddafi. We bought his oil and gas, we did very good business with him, we sold him our goods. Most importantly, he had been tamed. The peccadilloes of his youth, such as downing passenger planes in the skies of Scotland, had been forgiven. What was important was that he had stopped ranting against the US and Israel and given up on providing help to their overenthusiastic foes. Everybody knew that he was a ruthless and violent dictator, but it was far more convenient to picture him as an eccentric Bedouin who loved sunglasses, tents, amazons and colorful clothes.
But after 17 February 2011, things changed radically. All of a sudden, it appeared that he could rapidly be swept away by huge Libyan crowds that had materialized out of nowhere. This was worrying, because it was not easy to imagine who exactly would end up taking over the country, its oil and gas, the revenues from its oil and gas, and more importantly, the weight that could be pulled with the revenues from its oil and gas. But the wave of enthusiasm that the media had spread about the New Arab Awakening was simply overpowering.

 

This is where naive idiots like Nicholas Kristof deserve a heaping round of scorn. A whole new generation of pilots and navigators will spend hours boring holes in the sky, burning dead dinosaurs, to accomplish very little. Thanks asshole-thanks a lot. ( Or getting shot down or having to bailout of Libya).

2) Airpower does not save civilian lives in the sense it is being presented in the papers.  There are only three things airpower does: 1)Drop bombs for the purpose of killing people and destroying buildings and things. 2) Move items and people from point a to point b (this includes moving JP-8 to a point in the sky so a Hornet can then suck on a hose). 3) Perform surveillance on some one you want to watch ( Visually or electronically).

Notice-“impressing dictators who want to stay in power” is not any where on that list. This is generally why No Fly zones don’t really work except in a limited sense in that given sufficient volumes of all three of the types of sorties listed above, you can keep the other side from flying aircraft. You can’t stop them from attacking people on the ground-unless you pick a side and then perform mission 1) on the other side. We can’t make up our minds if this is what we are doing or not.

3.  Humanitarian imperatives make a poor basis for foreign policy. Otherwise there  would have been a no fly zone over Myanmar long ago. Or Sri Lanka. Or Congo. Or……..   well there are a lot of names to fill in the list.

BTW-how much comfort is a no fly zone in Libya providing to the people of Bahrain right now? Or Yemen? Or even Egypt.

4. Even if Khadaffi goes, do we really know what we are getting in his place? I don’t think so.

And then there is the opportunity cost to consider. How much damage does this do to an already overstretched military, and how many Chinese, Russian, or Indian aircraft are participating? For that matter how many Arabs are playing? ZERO.  These folks however will reap the benefit of our spending money that we supposedly don’t have. They will also reap the benefit of the higher oil prices its going to cause. (For good and ill as they pay more for gas, but launder more of the money the rest of the world uses to pay for it).

The administration has not made a sufficient case that Libya’s situation is so unique that it required a massive Western intervention. Khadaffi may have been attacking his own people-but he was not attacking anyone else. He won’t be the first or the last Arab leader to do that. Certainly there are a lot more tragedies going on in the world that we simply do nothing about. So appeals to the moral high ground tend to have no affect on me.

This is wrong for the same reason that Iraq was wrong. The United States of America ended up pressing an military intervention into a sovereign country that had not attacked it. Or even participated with others in an attack on it.

Ronald Reagan, the patron saint of the GOP would never have stood for this. He would have had the CIA funnel arms to the rebels-and maybe even could have gotten into a scandal of where the secret money came from. But he certainly would have recognized, as he did in Lebanon, that prolonged involvement in an Arab country never leads anywhere good.

This intervention is bad foreign policy and its a bad precedent to set. We, the West, will really come to regret this.

  1. Skippy,
    Good post. I wonder will Biden honor his claim he made back during the election that if he were the VP, and the President did a use of force that was not authorized by the Congress that he would lead the case for impeachment. Nothing heard from him yet.

    Will the Code Pink and all of the rest join in and denounce this and camp out in front of Obama’s house in Chicago like they did “W”?

    Whomever is left standing in Libya at the end of this, they had better start undercutting the Saudi’s in oil costs to the US and Europe, or for the next revolution, I say let Russia and China and India sort it all out.

  2. At least you Skippy are consistent, not like Iraq good Libya bad republican crowd…
    I am from opposite camp, I believe it is in US, and pretty much everyone else long term interest that as many Arab countries as possible break out of dictatorships. Being from the wrong side of iron curtain I wholly support the rebels who remind me of Warsaw 1944 and Budapest 1956. If I had the run of the things, AT-4s and light weapons would be dropped as soon as things went very bloody, and dedicated targetting of Quaddaffi himself would be made as per Berchtesgaden air raid of 1945. One thing I would avoid would be putting large numbers of troops on the ground and telling locals how to run their country. some special ops troops as advisors, not commanders. As Lawrence put it , better to Arab do things 70% good, than do it yourself for him perfectly.

  3. This whole Libyan episode is a big mistake. Should have left the Libyans there to sort it out on their own or do it Reagan-style. Like you mentioned, Libya is no threat to the rest of the world.

    Will the UN come up with a resolution if something like this happened in China? Highly unlikely but its a crazy world~

  4. Ewok,

    As Herman Wouk wrote-Victory only has meaning in its effects on the politics of the future, and whether it influences them to go your way. I happen to believe that Arabs will screw up democracy at every turn-until they divest themselves of Islam. Look at Algeria.

    There is a difference between providing weapons and active intervention. We’ve done both in Afghanistan and its still screwed up. But providing arms at least makes it a locally owned and operated conflict and does not create the prerequisites for further violence / intervention down stream.

    It is interesting you bring up 1956-especially since it was our failure to support European rights in the region that started the long run up to the current dreary age. The same people who support intervention now would not have supported it then.

  5. As much as I dislike Kissinger, though not as much as Hitchens, he was always one to look at the world the way it REALLY is, not thru the prism of OUR values, our POV.
    And you can’t save everyone….In the DRC women and girls are still being raped and murdered by the DRC “army’ AND the LRA, DESPITE the UN, what makes a Congolese life worth less than a Libyan? (plus the millions that died during THEIR civil war)
    Arms? did you se e the video of them firing their guns in the air/ what is this with Arabs and firing Ak’s into the air?
    Doesn’t Islam understand the laws of gravity?
    Its an ill disciplined rabble.
    and we should keep the heck outta that fight…
    Enemies make you stronger.
    Allies make you weaker.

  6. Everyone (here, Europe) seems to think the “Arab Spring” is about freedom and democracy. I do not believe that at all. It is about some other tribe, or group of tribes, who feel their time has come to opress those who have opressed them for so long. What do we really know about the opposition in Libya? What do we really understand about Arabs in general? They ain’t us and don’t want to be us. We should leave them alone and let nature take its course.

    Where do we stop after Libya (which is going to last months or years under US command)? Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain…the list goes on…

    Just. Leave. It.

  7. Well, if you think of the shareholders of Suez canal, they could have just left it to the “Mr nationalize all” Naser. Land property precedes buildings, as per Roman law. My 1956 is the Budapest uprising crushed by Soviet tanks. Hungarians lost much more than some wealth.

  8. i don’t bug you much. thought you’d find this cool. big bird, he speaks for you. yeah ripped from sal.

  9. Skippy,

    You have the better education about the grand things like foreign policy and international politicking, than me. However, I see this intervention in Libya as a failure of our leadership, the pundits, and the media in understanding international politicking. There is a time and place to massage out a pain in the neck and there is other times just to pop an asprin or two and ignore it. The reason being that correcting the pain in the neck isn’t going to help the third degree burns on our legs. What a number of people out there are failing to understand is that Gaddafi/Quaddafi/whatever was a counter-balance to some of the other wild hair crazies out there. Interestingly enough he did enough to cause hate and discontent that the Egyptians looked towards Libya over that border, down south he stuck his fingers into Chad a couple of time, toward the Algeria/Tunis borders if I remember right he gave harbor to the folks who were for a popular/socialist uprising, and basically he was an attention whore. There are times and places you want someone like that in a region basically cause it brings balance to the region. Also, one could go in and ring Gaddafi/Quaddafi/whatever’s bell, just to have him stamp down his attention whoreness. At least that is the way I am see it from my readings on Bismarckian style international politicking. The other fear is if we pull down pain in the neck attention whore like this, what will replace him and is there a chance we have actually set off a bigger bomb in the region?

    I also think another piece of the puzzle that the fourth estate is missing here, explaining that Gaddafi/Quaddafi/whatever was a socialist/popular uprising first, he doesn’t have a religous bone in his body. Except of course when he needs to appease that segement of his populace. So I think there are segements of the American population (and potentially the European population) that see him in the same light as we see the fight against the Taliban. This is wrong, but the 4th Estate also shows E-3’s when talking about Carrier AEW and talk about Prowlers going supersonic; so I don’t think they care much about accuracy.

  10. it’s inconceivable that the left would just go off and attack another country. I refuse to believe it. I don’t care what you say! It’s no more believable than the left would do renditions, keep Gitmo open for extended terrorist vacations, surge into Iraq AND afghanistan, justify in full the complete Patriot act. I’m shocked that you think the won would do any of that AND bomb a whole new country.

    I don’t think English is the first language for you or any of your other commenters. You guys are so funny.

  11. Keep in mind, you guys are all funny when you’re mad. Nothing less than the truth.

    I’ll bet not ONE SINGLE ONE YOU RESPONDS. pussies.

  12. To angry to type without spittle flying ey?

    Seriously, you’re ignoring it all aren’t you?

    All skippies are tongue tied now aren’t they?

    Who will the administration attack next? Guesses anyone?

  13. Nope and that’s where your problem starts.

    Let me ‘splain it to you man.

    You and I do mean you you totally bought into that whole Bush Derangement System and then you and again, I mean you bought totally into the Palin Derangement System. You did that.

    Every God damned thing that man did you condemned as nothing less than the work of SATAN incarnate walking the Earth.

    Gotta admit, we’ve kinda been laughing at y’all as you pretend and pounce through the right wing justifications as the won upheld each and every single one of them by himself and with Holder.

    Laughing ain’t half of it.

    that moron you loved to death boned all of you on every single issue and is now bombing his own new muslim country.

    You’re hysteric.

    I get the last word around here! Palin sucks.

  14. Yes, yes you do.

    For me, it’s enough that you drew a line. Shows just as clearly where the justice lay unarmed.

    Kind of like Breaker Morant.

    boned to death on every single issue/aspect of a brutal policy put in place.

    I’m laughing and going out for more grog.