Is many times, actually correct.
Phib had a post a couple of days ago, taking Newsweek to task for supposedly promoting defeat:
I’m angry. Why angry? Because the media like Newsweek did everything it could to undermine our victory during the most difficult times mid-decade. They took every chance to push the bad – yet are well over a year late with the good. Too angry to blog on a subject? Yes, too angry.
Angry? Yes, because most who paid attention called victory back in NOV …. NOV ’08.
Umm……that’s not exactly correct. In November of 2008 17 Americans died-that same month over 325 Iraqis were killed. This was in spite of a surge that was supposed to buy time for the Iraqis to come up with a political solution. And while it was true that casulties were down from the previous year ( In November of 2007 40 Americans lost their lives in Iraq)-the Iraqis were no closer to solving any of their problems.
Now fast forward to 2010-the Iraqis have had an election-and they still can’t tell who is in charge. That’s hardly a big suprise-its par for the course for the Iraqis.
As Foreign Policy magazine pointed out in its lastest edition, the conventional wisdom-and reporting-on Iraq may have been actually correct all along:
While few are shedding tears for Saddam Hussein, there’s not much evidence to suggest that his removal made the world safer — or that ousting him in this manner was worth the exorbitant cost in blood and treasure. The other two charter members of the axis of evil — Iran and North Korea — are still ruled by anti-American autocrats with fast-developing nuclear programs, and Iran, if anything, has been strengthened by the replacement of its archenemy with a reasonably friendly Shiite-dominated government.
The war has not exactly created a tidal wave of democracy either. Democracy has actually declined around over the last three years, according to U.S. NGO Freedom House. Early hopeful developments in the Middle East have not panned out either. Following the much-vaunted Cedar Revolution, Lebanon’s government has returned to its normal state of dysfunction. After some overtures, Libya’s Muammar al-Qaddafi has resumed his provocations. And the bloodshed continues in Israel and the Palestinian territories.
The bottom line is that thousands of American lives and trillions of dollarswere spent to turn one admittedly barbaric dictatorship into a semidemocracy addled by sectarianism and extremist violence. Doesn’t seem worth it.
Herman Wouk once wrote, that victory only has meaning if its effect produces the desired result for the future. Using a cost vs benefit metric-focusing solely on benefit for the United States-proves that the naysayers actually had a point. Furthermore-when precious American lives were at stake-it can be argued that news media and other outlets had a moral duty to speak out.
The simple truth of the matter was that the war-created its own story. Poorly begun is poorly done and if it were so important to have gone into Iraq, then it was worth doing full bore from the start. E.G. declaring war on the nation of Iraq, using the number of troops called for by the original war plan, and dispensing with the notion that there were good Iraqis and bad Iraqis-all Iraqis were our enemy until such point as they unconditionally surrendered.
The people who wrote about-simply reported the picture as they saw it.
However if you judge it by the standard of -did it do any good for the US? Well, then victory is not a word that comes to mind. As for did it do good for the Iraqis-well the jury is going to be out on that one for a long time to come. Given the track record of Arabs as a whole-I’m not optimistic.
But the cost-the real cost in lives, money, and national interest squandered-was never, ever, worth it.
And in that regard, the conventional wisdom was right all along. So Phib may be angry Newsweek never put lipstick on the pig until now. I’m angry that so many people let themselves be deluded into lifting a finger to put the pig in the pen in the first place.
My anger makes more sense.
First and foremost, Phibs’ a pussy. Unlike yourself, he’s a hasty one to ban dissent. He even figured out whossname! Still, he’s a racist bastard who pisses me off.
I’m a generational soldat. Old man, general. His old man, colonel. His old man shot a lawyer! Still need to read up on that. Ancestor shot to death at Bunker Hill. One was transported to America for life, mostly for being Scottish but I suspect that there was more to it than that. Another was a Hessian bastard.
War is kind of what we do from generation to generation. We’ve been giving a couple billion $ to Palestinians since the Camp David scumbagapalooza. If the world was suddenly to take a vote about just ending all Palestinians, I tend to think that 99% would vote in favor with most asking if they could pull the trigger.
4-6 thousand men died in that shithole over the last 7 years. We agree that nothing short of plasma can turn islamic scumbags into worthwhile fertilizer but at least our guys can have fun trying! I well recall salvaging a lighter from a shot to shit car in Failaka. Let’s be honest, the pilot had fun blowing it apart and I kind of enjoyed stealing a lighter from an otherwise car. Honestly, it was kind of like stealing a car radio/stereo but I haven’t done that…………yet. Maybe when I get sent to Afghanistan.
It’s a volunteer army dude and has been for a generation. They joined so they could be like the air farce and kill some people from time to time. Risking the pink bit…part of the agreement. We can morn them but they are doing what they wanted to do. Sucks to be on the battlefields opposing them.
Oh, and Phib’s still a racist little piece of shit.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the $. We might as well piss it away killing islamic scumbags since it would get spent by the government anyway. This way, at least, we’re not wasting it.
War is kind of what we do from generation to generation
That’s where we part ways-war may be something that happens from generation to generation, but that does not make it right. War is an abomniantion and a blight on humanity.
Furthermore-the fact that the military is all volunteer has nothing to do with having a war or not-if anything it has made it easier, not harder, for the US government to turn to the use of force. I never signed up to go to Iraq. Did not mean I would not have gone if ordered to-but that would not have made it right. And if I had gone and the worst happened-then it would have been a waste of my life.
Not that other Presidents did not try to waste my life in other regions-I almost got killed in 1981 doing Ronald Regan’s bidding-but the point is that it is still a bad thing to go war.
” The Supreme Art of War is to subdue the enemy without fighting”
Sun Tzu
http://www.afji.com/2010/02/4387134
an alternative to COIN
Sir,
I’d welcome your input and that of your friends and mentors. I’m really really over being a vicious SOB as I said.
What war in our history wasn’t worth fighting?
Revolution?
1812 ( those idiots burnt our capital which has its merits)
WWI
WWII
The Indian Wars?
Civil War
Mexico?
I would that our Message to Garcia included VX. 90 miles away from liberation along the lines of France, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy even East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Ukraine etc and we decided to screw them royally. All the progressives that I know think Cubans are every bit as lucky as NORKS or Russians. I shared a hot tub with two of them, one of them one of them my sister. Seriously, they think Cuba and NORK are paradise. You don’t do you? I mean neither has high speed rail so what kind of paradise is that?
It sounds like we had a bad war out there somewhere in the last 27 years when I wasn’t looking or maybe before that. The old man was in the Vietnam Thing, his old man and my great uncle in the Korea thing and the WWII thing. Would you believe the Black Sheep Squadron?
I just got it. Pananama ( I know but that’s the way my little girl pronounces it). Nicaragua….Falklands? OK, not our war but still a good one.
At least the war in Iran will be waged with nukes.
We nuked two cities to bring an end to an abomination that lasted a generation. Nobody much cared about the Rape of Nanking. Raping all of China and Korea and fucking with the US was just business. All of Europe was happy with the status quo as were we until they fucked with us. We’ve got a 60 year history of screwing non-African scumbags back way harder than they care for. We do it for oil because both Japan and Germany are filled with oil. OK, they were until we stole it all.
You guys are progressive and liberal. Do you ever wonder why we don’t commit our soldiers to places like Darfur anymore? So, your no more war means that we don’t care about Africans. They and Georgia are the last places on earth where the US doesn’t exert a dominance over the civil murder of innocents. IFOR, KFOR, NATO, our host knows how we still occupy Japan and Korea…..
I’m a wee bit curious. Do you guys ever feel silly? It’s like you don’t read history because you can’t read. Is there a whole progressive history course about evil America that nobody ever showed me?
This was so brilliant I’m posting it to my glob.
Yes, I know. Blog. Hubris demands humility first.
Skippy,
Maybe you are right. If we are going to go for oil, let’s just bring the troops home from Korea (I hate the curfew and the banning of my juicy clubs) and put them where they are really needed, along the US-Mexico border. This past weekend a person affiliated with the consulate in Jiuard was gunned down with his family. More people are killed per month in some of the Mexican border towns in both civilian and military personnel than were getting killed in Iraq during the highest points of the fighting. According to some of the “progressive logic” this would be ideal since Mexico does have plenty of oil and natural gas, along with some other viatals I am sure we can use, and we wouldn’t have to worry about some pesky country threatening to blockade our access to it since we can just pump it across the border.
So, for all of those who say the “Seven Sisters” run our foreign policy, why is it that we are not kicking the crap out of the Mexicans on our border and bringing democracy to them?
Seriously.
Let’s be medieval.
Are there truly none of you prepared to defend your position?
Curtis,
The war in Iraq was a colossal mistake. And it is hard for me to accept that. 5000 brave Americans are dead for worthless Arabs. Maybe it was good for the Iraqis-but I’m more concerned about what is right for Americans.