For you may surely get it.
A few months ago, I wrote, ” I would no more go to a tea party than I would to an anti-war demonstration. I’ll fight stupidity through the ballot box, thank you very much. The teabaggers act like they are some holy crusade; however, they don’t really have a coherent message. What is it they are protesting exactly?………..If you ask me, the Tea Parties are a celebration of selfishness.“
I continue to stand by that sentiment-even more so now, as in recent days, anti -Obama demonstrators disrupt congressional meeting after Congressional meeting. It is a disturbing phenomenon to watch, even more so when you do some digging to find out who is behind it.
Of course, there are quite a lot of bloggers out there defending this type of conduct-reminding us yet again, with just the right tone of outrage, how these protesters are somehow different from those who were out protesting during the previous administration over the Iraq war. Always, of course, this message is delivered with a patented sneer-such as only the truly converted can deliver. The rowdies at the rallies go home in the calm self-assurance of knowing somehow that their protests are better than someone else’s.
The problem is they are not. They are just as silly and just as useless. More to the point, they are continuing a very disturbing trend that we were warned about back during the campaign. Only now it is being branded as an insurgency. Correct me if I am wrong -but I thought those were supposed to be a bad thing. Or is that only when they are in Iraq?
The teabaggers don’t want to have a conversation about healthcare. That’s not anywhere on the menu-hell most of them don’t even understand anything that is at stake in the insurance reform debate. All they really know is that it is connected with Obama, and therefore they don’t like it. Never mind that whether they like it or not -they have a stake in fixing the healthcare system:
It’s not just that many Americans don’t understand what President Obama is proposing; many people don’t understand the way American health care works right now. They don’t understand, in particular, that getting the government involved in health care wouldn’t be a radical step: the government is already deeply involved, even in private insurance.
And that government involvement is the only reason our system works at all.
The key thing you need to know about health care is that it depends crucially on insurance. You don’t know when or whether you’ll need treatment — but if you do, treatment can be extremely expensive, well beyond what most people can pay out of pocket. Triple coronary bypasses, not routine doctor’s visits, are where the real money is, so insurance is essential.
Yet private markets for health insurance left to their own devices work very badly: insurers deny as many claims as possible, and they also try to avoid covering people who are likely to need care.
That is why the insurance companies need a swift kick in the balls-the question that needs to be debated and debated honestly is how best to administer it.
But you won’t get that from this crowd. They’re there to shout health insurance reform down and turn the event into a conservative rally. They’re not interested in public debate.
Let us say, for argument’s sake-that Obama is 100% wrong. And that taking on health care really was a bridge too far-does it really justify the kind of juvenile antics we have witnessed in the past few days? American democracy is supposed to be better than that. Efforts to thwart public discourse on civic matters are by their nature anti-democratic. Contrary to history, the teabaggers never bothered to learn-the founding fathers wanted no part of that kind of nonsense in their government. More importantly, these types of actions are the beginning of a slide down a very slippery and very dangerous slope. Action will beget a reaction. One side will bring a crowd, and the next time the other side will bring more. Someone will bring a baseball bat, and the next time someone else will come back with a gun. It’s all fun and games till someone gets hurt. And anyone who believes there are not a few lunatics out there who are not thinking about doing that -well, you have to have a screw loose not to believe that it is possible.
Overreacting, am I? I don’t think so:
Back when I was in college, it was generally (no: exclusively) left-wing fanatics who used these tactics, disrupting speaking engagements, debates, and public meetings when anyone whom they disagreed with was featured. Conservatives, rightfully, complained, and I recall the label “Little Stalins” being applied to such people– some of whom graduated on to the full-scale violence that has marked WTO meetings and the like. is that next on tap for these Teabag Bacchantes– broken windows, torched police cars, and maybe a bleeding body or two? These sorts of tactics are simply illegitimate, no matter what the cause. And if these folks did have an honest grievance, they have rendered it irrelevant by carrying on like this. Spoiled five-year-olds are better behaved. Someone should send these overgrown brats home and put them to bed without their suppers.
These folks don’t understand the fire they are playing with. There are still three years to the next Presidential election. If this lunacy is not reigned in -and repudiated by the leaders of the Republican party, it will get out of control, and someone will get killed. You mark my words.
And it is just as dangerous for the Democrats if they try to spar with these morons. The old adage about wrestling with a pig still applies. It’s even more dangerous when you call the pig the dirty swine that it is. Being an adult is supposed to go part and parcel with being in the majority.
Having a better message would not hurt either. After all, the rules of this playbook are already well understood.
Where do you go to find the facts or the “truth’?
Beware the masters of manipulation on the left and the right.
By the way, Chris mentioned the site I talked about a few times..www.realclearpolitics.com to get a diversity of opinion.
and maybe within those opinions there might be even a kernal of truth.
Yeah, there were some passionate times in the 60’s when the left
had the market on extremism.
On a totally unrelated matter:
I normally don’t read the Asia Times but I did JUST read Chalmers Johnson’s usual anti military, anti US diatribe on liquidating US bases overseas.
He did make some good points but he said this” That the rape of girls and women by US servicemen on Okiniwa is “out of control”
Is this true?
I am a news junkie and I have read nothing about this sort of thing.
I don’t know where HE gets his info.
Caveat: I have read about a few rapes over the years but not something that would lead me to believe its “out of control” Though, of course, even one rape is one too many.
Just maybe the American people understand the consequence of what Congress is trying to force on them.
Yes there are some things that could be better about “health insurance”. One is not having the Government running it.
BTW: Our founding fathers WERE the first teabaggers!
Actually no-the American people do not understand it. If they did there would be a greater swell of outrage at how the insurance companies are trying to fuck them over.
My son is a diabetic. He’s also a paramedic. When he decided to change jobs last winter-his decision was partially motivated by one thing-health insurance to pay for his insulin, and my ex-wife’s douchbaggery in no paying for his insurance. ( Proving once again what a greedy whore she really is.) As a result, I got stuck paying his cobra premiums for three months till he could clear the “insurabilty ” hurdle at his new place of employment. Now from where I sit, that is total and complete bullshit.
But then, I’m an advocate of a 65% solution where you would be forced to save for your retirement and forced to pay for health insurance. If that means its government running health insurance-well OK. It works overseas-why not here?
Skippy,
When dealing with the government I tend to extrapolate from trends. You appear to think that government can do health care better than what we have now. You don’t offer any evidence for your beliefs but it’s your blog and you don’t have to if you don’t want to.
You know the government that meddled with US National Intelligence gathering for a generation has given us a better system than what we had and the same government that gave us AMTRACK and the Postal Service is now interested in giving us cheaper better more affordable health care. What’s the USPS budget gap right now? $7billion? And Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security those are all the products of diseased government bureaucrats who knew they could make things better by just dipping into our pockets a little tiny bit but they honestly put the money they extracted from our pay into honest accounts in each of our names and we can relax comfortable in the knowledge that come the day when it’s our turn to share in the lavish benefits we’ll get ours…won’t we?
Why don’t we contrast some of the above with private enterprise? Well, there are two obvious contrasts with the broken down USPS: FEDEX and UPS. They appear to actually make money with greater speed, efficiency, innovation and delivery schedules. Our search for a private enterprise competitor to AMTRACK would be hard to find. It seems when the USG took over the rails they drove out private industry. (We’re just talking passenger rail, please don’t bring up the Union Pacific or Sante Fe etc.)
Ok Curtis,
I’ll bite. First with regard to FEDEX and UPS, I’ve had good luck with postal service. For the things I need them for-they compete very well. ( A trackable means of sending my alimony primarily). They are about a dollar cheaper than FEDEX and they have NEVER EVER missed a delivery.
AMTRAK is an issue of funding pure and simple. Fund them so they can invest in a real rail system-and their rider ship might increase ( This goes back to the high speed rail argument).
However, with respect to health care-here is the issue:
Find me a commercial alternative that does these five things and I am sold:
No Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions
No Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses,
No Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill.
No Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage
Guaranteed Insurance Renewal
Problem is, the rich f**ks who run insurance companies would not agree to it-so here we are. They need a kick in the balls.
….”his decision was partially motivated by one thing-health insurance to pay for his insulin,”
“if we don’t like our current plan, we can exit from it and choose another. Government insurance will tend to close off the option of exit, trapping you in a system that is sure to be riddled with unanticipated consequences.”
Making health insurance a perk to employment has caused a lot of the problems in the system. Everyone seems to think that the insurance industry should be pay one price for one policy that covers everything, no matter who or what your health is.
He’s a big boy now and changing jobs has a consequence. Maybe the Ex wants to make sure that he understands the responceablities that go along with that. You were a good person for helping him out, maybe a string attached to your financial bailout would also have helped him.
Curtis,
I am self-employed, 48 and in reasonably good health. I have genetically high cholesterol and job induced high blood pressure. My health insurance costs $1000 per month has a $2500 deductible and only covers 70% of the costs of a visit. The one benefit to this policy is that at least the insurance company has a contract with the health care providers and hospitals that reduces the out of pocket costs somewhat. After my mortgage, the single largest expense I have each month is my health insurance–and with the deductible, I usually can’t afford to get more than the routine care for my meds.
This is not a system that works. You criticize Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Where were we before those programs? Older Americans losing their homes. Medical care unavailable to those who had worked and striven to feed America only to lose everything in the Dust Bowl or the Depression?
Why should a Nation as wealthy as the United States allow the least of our citizens to starve or die from lack of care? That is the question being asked. Who can say we should? You?
Respects
OAM
Where does the money go?
Why, for instance,do you get quality medical care at Bumrungrad hospital in Bangkok at the fraction of the cost in the US?
The doctors are well trained and the facility is modern etc etc.
Where does the money go?
Curtis,
You obviously don’t know my ex. Teaching my son any type of a lesson is not in her toolbox. With her its only about the money.
Choosing health insurance should not be a factor in making the decision to change jobs. ( Or have it be a consequence of losing a job). I am one of those guys that believes there should be one price for health insurance and it ought to cover everything. That’s why the Single Payer option makes a lot of sense sometimes.
OAM,
This will sound callous and heartless and perhaps it is. You have a problem. What right do you have in America to make your problem my problem? What gives you the right to steal money from me to pay for your medical needs? Do I have to pay your legal bills and cable TV bill too? Just where does it stop this stealing from me to pay for shit you need? I’m 49, I have a job and medical and dental insurance through my company. I’m divorced and pay full medical and dental insurance for my daughter. I don’t whine about it. She won’t turn 18 for more than a decade and I’ll go right on working and paying her insurance until then…..at least.
My grandfather was an MD in Pennsylvania. He married a nurse that he met in Newfoundland. He worked all his life and paid for what he wanted and needed. His children did the same thing. I want to do the same thing. I don’t want to be forced to pay for 47 million other people, 18 million illegals and pick up the tab for the other 230 million people living here.
You seem keen to make me pay for you and you blithely ignore what MEDICARE is, how it works, how much it costs and the effects of nationalized health care on every nation on this planet that has tried it. Government only makes things worse. I certainly don’t want to go off on a tangent but have you done any reading on the governments proposals to force all hospitals to provide abortions on demand? I recall reading that if that happened 850 Catholic Hospitals would probably close their doors. How many hospitals had ERs a generation ago and how many are left today?
Skippy feels like he is entitled to my money of which I have very little. He thinks that with a big enough pool he can find a company willing to ignore pre-existing conditions when setting payment. He thinks that they should not affect him or his payment because hey, other people can balance out the cost delta for pre-existing conditions. Ditto long term illness. Skippy seems to be young enough that he doesn’t realize that when he turns 65 his TRICARE turns into MEDICARE. There are a lot of doctors that don’t take MEDICARE for obvious reasons. Have you looked into why doctors would refuse to take medicare patients?
Skippy, I was not the one to comment on the “teaching” moment. I wouldn’t dream of it. I have one of my own!
Curtis
See, you have hit what this is all about-its about the perception of how I am out to steal your hard earned money. That lie is at the heart of the health care controversy.
If we don’t fix the system-you will lose money anyway, That’s the key issue that the critics do not seem to understand.
This article by Steve Pearlstein is worth a read
There are lots of valid criticisms that can be made against the health reform plans moving through Congress — I’ve made a few myself. But there is no credible way to look at what has been proposed by the president or any congressional committee and conclude that these will result in a government takeover of the health-care system. That is a flat-out lie whose only purpose is to scare the public and stop political conversation.
Under any plan likely to emerge from Congress, the vast majority of Americans who are not old or poor will continue to buy health insurance from private companies, continue to get their health care from doctors in private practice and continue to be treated at privately owned hospitals.
Skippy,
You will despise the source of the following but I would ask you to read it all right down to the last words by the governor. I didn’t get this first hand from Fox or Hannity, I got it the time before last when I was in Hawaii driving on US1 and listening to Hawaii Public Radio on my way back from Makalapa.
I don’t expect you pickpockets to learn much but shouldn’t you at least accept a point of view that takes the trouble to learn from other people’s lessons? Maybe you’re one of those fools who insists that you’re not going to learn from somebody else’s mistakes since you want to make your own mistakes in glorious ignorance.
Only a complete and total moron believes that he will save his money if the government underwrites 100% of healthcare for an additional 47 million people plus the 18 million illegals plus the 230 million living here now, most of whom are PAYING FOR THEIR OWN DAMNED HEALTHCARE!
Just saying.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Welcome back to “Universal Nightmare.” Hawaii was the 50th state admitted to the union, but the first to implement a universal health- care scheme. Now, it did not go as lawmakers in the Aloha State had originally planned, and Griff Jenkins, he tells us the story why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFF JENKINS, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to Hawaii, home to surfing and the aloha spirit and the childhood home of President Barack Obama. It’s also home to a failed experiment in universal health care, an experiment whose lessons seem lost on its most famous son.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: We have finally decided it’s time to give every American quality health care at an affordable cost.
JENKINS (voice-over): Critics of President Obama’s plan for universal coverage for all Americans worry that while the goal of universal health care might be noble, the government may not be able to pay for it.
• Video: Watch the ‘Hannity’ investigation
OBAMA: We will have some up front costs. Anywhere from 1 trillion to $2 trillion, so what I’ve proposed is that we cap the itemized deductions that the top 2 or 3 percent get, people making over $250,000 a year. With that additional money we would have paid for all of the health care that I’m proposing.
JENKINS: But the president may not be able to make good on that pledge. Although he has vowed to examine other attempts at universal health care like the United Kingdom and the Canadian system.
OBAMA: A lot of those countries employ a different system than we do. Not all of them, by the way, use a socialized medicine. Almost all of them have what would be considered a single payer system in which the government essentially operates a Medicare for all.
Column Archive
* Universal Nightmare: Hawaii’s Failed Universal Health Care Experiment
* Universal Nightmare: Would U.S. Patients Have Been So Lucky Elsewhere?
* Program Linked to First Lady Michelle Obama Accused of Patient ‘Dumping’
* Poll Says Public Losing Trust in Obama
* Jindal Warns Against Health Care Bill
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* Watch the ‘Hannity’ investigation
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JENKINS: But note, he has failed to mention Hawaii’s now-defunct program to insure all children.
(on camera) Celebrating its 50th year of statehood, Hawaii became the first in the nation to attempt universal health care. On June 30, 2007, Governor Linda Lingle signed legislation into effect called Keiki Care.
(voice-over) The word “keiki” means child in the Hawaii native tongue, and the Keiki Care program gave free insurnace to children whose families could not afford it on their own. Those covered had no monthly premium and had access to doctor visits for just $7.
The program partnered the state of Hawaii with the state’s largest private insurance provider, HMSA.
BARBARA LUKSCH, HAWAII COVERING KIDS: It had public-private partnership. We had a health insurance plan, HMSA, that was putting up 50 percent of the cost. And the state was putting up 50 percent, so there is a match between the public and private entities.
JENKINS: The plan targeted Hawaiian residents who were the, quote, gap children: kids ineligible for state programs who had not had health care for six consecutive months.
JENNIFER DISMAN, HMSA SPOKESPERSON: The original estimates for Keiki Care were 3,500 children, and the hope, of course, was to enroll all of those children. And the budgetary monies that were included in the statute covered 3,500 children.
JENKINS: But the governor’s office soon found out that the plan was being abused.
GOV. LINDA LINGLE, R-HAWAII: What the legislators did was they created a state insurance program that allowed parents who already were paying for their children’s health insurance to drop their private coverage and to come take advantage of the state coverage.
And what that meant was that taxpayers were subsidizing parents for health insurance that they were previously paying for. It just didn’t make sense; it couldn’t be sustained.
JENKINS: Governor Lingle cut funding for the plan after just seven months, because the state budget could not handle the strain of more families jumping from their private insurance to the free government health care.
Most affected were the smaller private insurers, left high and dry when families switched to the government plan. A plan that just happened to be cosponsored by the largest Hawaiian insurance company. Critics call it the crowd-out effect. But HMSA says it didn’t happen.
LINGLE: As far as HMSA saw, there was no crowd-out.
JENKINS: When the government made the decision to cancel the program, the Democrat-run state legislature was baffled.
STATE SENATOR DAVID IGE, D-HAWAII: We were shocked. Everybody agreed that the Keiki Care program was working as we expected it to work. It was a very targeted program. It was targeted for those who are not able to qualify for Medicaid and yet are not able to afford health insurance costs.
JENKINS: But Governor Lingle argues that the statistics were on her side.
(on camera) According to the Department of Human Services, 85 percent of those enrolled in Keiki Care previously had insurance.
(voice-over) Conservative radio show host Rick Hamada has the governor on his show every week, often discussing the health care controversy.
RICK HAMADA, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: The primary failure was the fact that there were so many loopholes that individuals were able to take advantage of the state system, individuals who up until that point provided health care for their own children paid for out of their own pocket. They now found a way to have the state taxpayers pay that responsibility.
JENKINS: The Obama administration has vowed that their plan will have has massive oversight, but with the pressure the president is putting on the House and Senate to push through landmark health care reform, there is the potential for loopholes and abuse like in Hawaii.
Stan Slom is truly a minority in the Hawaiian state senate, one of only two Republicans up against 23 Democrats. To him, the experiment failed.
STATE SENATOR STAN SLOM, R-HAWAII: It’s not doing what it’s supposed to do. It’s not taking care of those gap children. It’s not taking care of the children that cannot, through no fault of their own and their parents, pay for the insurance. It’s allowing other people to get a free ride at taxpayer expense.
JENKINS: So as the president and the Democratic-led Congress rush in an unprecedented fashion towards universal health care for all Americans.
OBAMA: The costs of fixing our problems are great. The costs of inaction, of not doing anything, are even greater.
JENKINS: They may want to take a closer look at how that worked in the president’s birth state of Hawaii.
LINGLE: I think it should be a cautionary tale to anyone that there can be unintended consequences of these plans, and when you think you’re doing something that’s a good idea and you have good intentions, that’s often not enough.
Skippy-san is rightly worried about violence at these town hall debates. Passions are inflamed.
Well, here it is.
My God Skippy,
You’ll believe anything a democrat says won’t you? Do you still clap your hands for Tinkerbelle? Pearlstein is a hack who is offended that in our republic we still are allowed to disagree strongly with the Socialists who know what is best for us.
You know what is really bad about this whole thing? The longer it goes on the less I am caring about the content. It becomes less and less about having a discussion and more about ensuring that the tea baggers don’t get their way. Its like fighting with my ex-wife. There was no way I was ever going to convince her of anything-because she was not equipped emotionally or intellectually to understand. So it just devolved into wanting her to experience real pain. Since jail is not an experience I want to try-I learned hard to restrain myself, and simply walk away and begin comsuming mass quantities of mind numbing beverages.
This conversation needs to be had-but it needs individuals who are capable of understanding it and conversing responsibly. Hannity does not fit into that category.
And as for Tinkerbelle-yea I still clap my hands for her-she has a nice ass.
Skippy,
Clap your hands for Social Security. As of this year the Ponzi Scheme is receiving less $ from payees than it is paying out. Since the Social Security Trust fund consists of nothing but IOUs, we can start the short slide into total fiscal bankruptcy of the US Government. It’s sort of “off-budget” so some dim bulbs won’t notice. Not that you did for the last 30 years.