UPDATE! Since an emotional arguement seems to stir up the wrong kind of emotions I’ve gone through and corrected the offending F word. A more reasoned post on this same subject will be posted tonight.
Driving home from work today, I heard someone talking on NPR about getting “married”.
Now I’m not a big fan of anything gay rights related. Frankly, for the life of me, I never understood the whole attraction of trying to go “up the down staircase”-even between a man and a woman. I’ll stick to the two traditional, and generally well lubricated, female entry points-thank you very much.
And try as I might I cannot get behind the idea of two guys, getting married. Then slipping away into pole smoking, happily ever after, bliss. I should, given my general feelings that sex is good and more sex is better. But try as I might I just can’t do it. Guys don’t do guys. Sorry-that’s just the order of things.
However, this whole gay marriage thing may be the opportunity for society and the world to re-think marriage in general. If those who practice the lifestyle get their way, marriage will become recognized for what it has become-an economic partnership; a contract-that sometimes works well for a long time-and sometimes is best torn up early. Certainly it has moved past the nonsense of one person being the end all, and be all, of human emotional and sexual existence.
Maybe once upon a time-marriage in its traditional form made sense. It protected the species in a whole bunch of ways. It still provides an environment for raising children, only the odds of it being a successful way to raise children are diminshing.
Certainly the whole monogamy thing has out lived its usefulness. I’m jaded on the whole enterprise I know, but if current statistics are any indicator, women are not providing what men need near enough. And the idea of only one partner for 50+ years-especially if that partner has an allergy to spit polishing the bishop-well that stopped computing a great while ago.
Once was a time when those who practice the lifestyle were leading the way on that score. It was considered a free and open life style and except for the whole men on men thing-it was outpacing heterosexuals in quantity. Of course back in the good old days-even heterosexuals were getting more than appears to be the case today. At least if memory serves me ok-I liked the 70’s for a whole bunch of reasons. One of which had to do with Mr. Goodbar. Reason #238 why I miss Asia. I missed out on my chance to enter the priesthood.
Of course then along came AIDS, and screwed it up for everybody. (To quote Sam Kinison-” Because a few lifestyle practioners had to f**k some monkeys, now we have to live with the black plague of the 80’s.”). Many saw it as the natural result of the licentious lifestyle. Maybe-but all that proves is that medical science had not come as far as it should have. Even in a totally married world-sexually transmitted diseases should be as rare as smallpox IMHO.
The problem is-no one has still come up with a decent way to raise kids besides marriage-and as a result divorce still ranks right up there as a major problem. Can’t wait till some guy has to fork over half his pension to his “domestic partner”. Welcome to party pal!
So even if marriage survives-it is time to rewrite the contract on the front end. And fix the really bad features of the current system. Maybe besides a marriage licence everyone should be required to get a pre-nup.
So I’m no fan of gay marriage-truth be told. Why gay guys are on fire to screw up your lives is beyond me. Just remember, I warned you.
“Some see the move as an attempt to preserve traditional values, while others see it as a cynical ploy to ensure that Vice President Dick Cheney will never have to pay for his gay daughter’s wedding.” —Jon Stewart, on President Bush’s proposal for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage
…. and you think men are providing what women need near enough?
Not all wives are money-grabbers allergic to sex. And not all husbands are faultless creatures who should be “rewarded” with BJs amongst other things. Even you and I know that.
Scotch aka someone’s wife who also happens to love BJs
btw liberal as I am (though nowhere as liberal as I was…) I do NOT support gay marriages for a very different reason – marriage was created as a religious institution and it should be left that way. I’m nowhere near religious but I think you can’t have it both ways.
Skippy,
You are on the right path I do believe. At heart, strip away all the religious connotations and denotations and all other notations, marriage is an economic contract. Always was and always will be. Society is now beginning to admit marriae is economic. Once that admission become public; marriage, civil unions whatever name one wishes to apply beomes a necessity i equality before the law is to continue to have meaning.
Personally I think civil unions with all the rights and obligations of marriage is fine with marriage being a civil union consumated according to religious standards and rites. Divorce would be according to church law.
Get married by religious rules; you have to live and suffer by rules of church. Bet would make a lot of people re-consider marriage. as opposed to civil union.
The economic considerations and medico-legal consideration make legal recognition of same sex unions mandatory. And inevitable.
We tend to forget societal views of homosexuality have changed over time within and between cultures. And definations of homosexuality vary with cultures.
For Scotch,
Most intersting observation about females and bj’s: the more highly educated the women the more likely she is to enjoy bj’s. Not a hardandfast rule to be sure but tends that way. BTW this from a PhD pychology professor fireind whoes research intersts ran to sexuality and societal views on menstral issues.
Many great conversations with him; many fuled by much beer and wine. Ever notice how “intelligent” and profound discussions become?
Get religion out of government. The government should confer the economic benefits of marriage on any two consenting adults of legal age. Period. Churches can do whatever they want outside of those economic benefits. As far as I’m concerned, if a church wants to only marry people of the same race, or something similarly stupid, they should be allowed to. I don’t think such a church would have many members, but regardless, this concept of the government somehow being involved in the “religious institution” of marriage is stupid.
“If the fags get their way ….”
When you use language like that, you don’t need to tell us you’re against gay marriage.
And to the commenter who uses the excuse, “marriage was created as a religious institution and it should be left that way” – you’re several hundred years too late.
This whole thing is just like why Shannon Faulkner wanted (and plenty of groups wanted as well) to become a cadet. Notice, I didn’t say SUCCEED as a cadet, or become a GRADUATE — it is just another symbol that some have to see fall. I agree Skippy, they have no idea what a can of worms they just opened. But unlike the cynic you are, I think (and obviously acted on this belief) that there are quantifiable reasons for taking the extra step and getting married — best summed up in the works of Dr. Harville Hendrix.
Who is Harville Hendrix?
>>And to the commenter who uses the excuse, “marriage was created as a religious institution and it should be left that way” – you’re several hundred years too late.
I think no one can dispute that marriage initially came about as a religious institution – do NOT get confused as to what it’s evolved into these days.
People can choose to stay together happily ever after – but if they opt to go down the marriage route then they should be taken as having accepted the religious connotation of it.
And before you say it, no I’m not religious AT ALL.
“If fags get their way…”
Dude. Either you are a comical charlatan who just stirs the pot for the pure joy of watching people squirm or you are one of the most backward, juvenile, sexually frustrated and morally bankrupt men on the planet. I have to say I thought it was all a ruse but am now rethinking that.
Bitter, aging sexist, homophobic, most likely racist as well. Damn.
The Navy Department must be breathing a huge sigh of relief that you retired. As a retiree myself, I have to wonder what all those who served with you think of the man you have become. Or, were you always this pleasant a human being? What a treat you must have been. Ah, but perhaps you truly are a charlatan and hide these views from those with whom you live and work.
How odd that you chose to pay tribute to Mr. Timothy J. Russert. I would think any man who held high ideals, great moral values and lived and breathed family , faith and honest integrity above all else would terrify you.
No matter how many souls,
who also suffer from moral bankruptcy, low self esteem and bitter
hatred, you surround yourself with, rest assured that there are legions of us
who put our wives, children, friends, faith, strength of character, kindness to our fellow human beings and dedication to community service at the top of our lists….and are filled with the joy of life because of it. You do so need a sense of joy. Bitterness can never be cured by mindless sex and golf. Sex with one you love and a great (or even bad) game of golf can be fantastic but is not the end all be all of life. NO matter how funny you think you are when discussing either.
Damn man. For your own sake, get over whatever is eating at you, somehow, someway. Keep telling yourself that you and your buddies are right, that all men think as you do, that you are on the right track. That track you are on is facing due West and there is an East bound Diesel Engine bearing down on you hard. I wish you well and peace of spirit…you seem to need it.
Chief Buck,
I guess I should hang the “Mission Accomplished” banner now. I really hesitated before hitting the “post” button when I wrote this post. I knew I had written it in an inflammatory manner-but at the end I decided to post it because I think if you take the “vernacular” away you can still come to my main point-marriage is evolving in American society. On the whole-moral lectures aside, that is probably a good thing.
I had to read your comment several times to make sure I got the gist of what you are saying-I don’t think I do. Are you saying that everyone has to be like you or the “legions” to be happy? Certainly that is not the case and besides it certainly is not the point. People should be free to do what they want to do.
Lets review the main points.
1) I really have no reason to be opposed to Gay marriage-but I am. Deep down I believe that marriage is between an man and a woman and anything else just should not have standing in society. I just don’t understand homosexuality-I never will. Sue me.
2) Why does everyone think I am bitter? Actually I am pretty happy these days-about the only thing I can really complain about is where I am living, and in the grand scheme of things that is minor. ( at least for the present-I know I will have to return to Asia in a relatively short period of time). It is true that I am more than a little unhappy at having to pay money to my ex-wife. I honestly believe I should not have to give her a dime. Your solution seems to be to stay in an unhappy relationship just to satisfy someone else’s expectation of what I should do with my personal life. Some people are family people and others are not. I am not am finally realized that later in my life. You are happy-great. Why can’t I be happy in my way?
3) And while we are on that subject, I did OK with my Navy compatriots. I had 4 commands and had a good reputation for taking care of my Sailors which truth be told is about the only thing that matters IMHO. I helped a lot of people get the orders they wanted and that was something I am proud of. Now the Navy I came into, used to be able to make a distinction between one’s private and professional life. And it stayed out of the private life so long as the indivdual showed up for work on time. The new family friendly Navy seems to make no such distinction and seems to think it has the right to meddle in all things. The privledge never existed. I never made a secret of my thoughts on that subject but I learned long ago that you have to pick your fights and that you cannot always win all of them. I don’t think that makes me a charlatan. I can read the writing on the wall though-and I believe that work is work and I don’t need to inject my personal opinions into that arena. If that makes me a charlatan-so be it. I prefer to think it makes me a professional. Plus when you are in command you have to enforce the party line-does mean you agree with it. I’ve got the T-shirt from well meaning people trying to meddle in my private life. Guess that makes me bitter because I did not drink their kool-aid.
You know when it really comes down to it-people deserve to be happy. With whatever makes them happy. So maybe the gay guys are on to something after all. They deserve to be happy, you deserve to be happy, I deserve to be happy. Its the engineer of that diesel train who does not seem to want all of us to be happy if you ask me.
I’ve got a post coming up in a couple of days that ought to really get your blood pressure up. Come back and see it.
Nope, I won’t be back. Not that you could write one word that would boil my pressure. I long ago realized that this world had a few cynical, sarcastic smart asses in it and yup. You could head the execitive board. Mad no, not at all.
People do deserve to be happy. Even folks like you with attitudes that make me queasy. Sad? Yeah, sad that anyone would choose to live such a bitter life.
You did not understand what I was saying in my comment? Shucks. I guess we can’t all be as well educated and sophisticated as you. Pardon me for writing in such an
elementary way. I will try to make myself much more clear.
Not *understanding* homosexuality does not give you, or anyone, the license to
use deflamatory language. It is about respect. Living as a gay man or woman does not hinder a person from being a good, decent, loving member of society. Am I a proponent of *Gay* marriage? Not exactly. I too always believed that *marriage* was the coupling of a man and a woman. Still, does being *Gay* mean you are destined to have a life long relationship be totally unrecognized by society? Almost as cruel as someone using the word “Fag”.
I have no desire to have you married, happily or not. Why would I wish that on any woman? I married my wife because she completes me. She is my soulmate, my only, very satistying, lover and my best friend. You have not found that, you most likely never will. I think that is sad.
*My* solution is to stay in an unhappy marriage? I could not find where I wrote those words at all. Twist the wording anyway you wish, I said you were bitter. It oozes out of every pore. It doesn’t take much to see that clearly. What I was saying was that, no matter how you wish it to be so (and this is just my take on things you have written), most men I have worked with, lived with, broken bread with, do not share your views.
And thank God for that. You desperately wish to believe that most men fantasize about sex with hookers and only barely post-pubescent girls, solving all of life’s problems with alcohol and bitching about the wife. T’ain’t so my friend. Oh, *you* are out there, but not in the vast numbers for which you long.
I lived through a divorce years ago. Was she blameless. Hell no. Was I? Oh Hell no. While we were unable to be happy in a marriage *together*, we did produce 2 amazing children. Those children deserve something more than Daddy being a life long bitter cynic. Slashing my ex wife’s character online, or in any way imaginable, would have lessened me as a man and desperately hurt my children. You weren’t a family man? You should have considered that before you fathered one. Being respectful of others, especially the mother of 2 of my children,
is the very least I can do as a human being. Divorcing your ex does not lessen your responsibilities as a dad. Neither does them reaching any particular age. I am my children’s father at 5, 15, 21, 39 and forever. What I say and do matters to them. How I live my life matters to them.
Being a dad takes much more than sending a check every month. Yeah, yeah. You do not want or need a lecture by the likes of me do you? I would imagine you already know you dropped the ball on this one. Disrespect to your ex is disrespect to your children. Plain and simple.
I am also both my mother’s and my father’s son. I am my brothers’ sibling, a devoted uncle to my nieces and nephew and an important cog in my family’s over all structure. It means more to me than I can say to be able to assist my folks with their needs, to be an active part of a group of people who mean more to me than anything.
To be there for them, to have the HONOR to BE there for them is both a privilege and
a joy. That is what being a *family* man means to me.
You hate that your ex gets a check from you or from Uncle Sam? Were you married over half of your career? Then she deserves it. Whether you personally were happy or not does not lessen the fact that she earned it. If you were so miserable, you should have opted out long before you did. She is the mother of your children? I do not care of she is the Wicked Witch of the West. She earned every penny. If you can do all you write about doing, well, you ain’t too bad off financially sir so get on with it, get over it and take the high road.
Not a family man? Then why are you shacking up with *one* woman? Doesn’t that fly in the face of all you would have us believe you are?
I doubt you truly know what you want only what you wish you were. Sadly, what it appears you wish you were (at least to the casual observer) seems to be a childless, partner-less Asian bar hopper with no responsibilites who endulges in mindless sex with barely legal women forced into degrading and dangerous life situations. Yeah, that is a life well lived.
I have friends and family who remain happily unwed and without children. God bless ’em. They are happy and feel no need to trash talk anyone whose lifestyle differs. They are also men and women who respect others, regardless of their sex, their sexual orientation, their race or economic status.
For the record, I lived in Asia, Europe too. I have traveled the globe and still have not found a country in which I would rather reside than the US. France comes in second but only distantly. *Very* distantly. The US is certainly not close to being perfect but it remains MY country in every respect. I am proud to be a part of the American family…an American family man.
I respect your love of Asia. I respect your right to choose a lifestyle that makes you happy.
I will never respect the crude manner in which you flame America, your fellow human beings and women in general. That truly does lessen you as a man.
No, I won’t be back, not because I am afraid of having my blood pressure raised. I will not be back because, as a professional fire fighter (my second career)/paramedic, I have witnessed the results of one catastrophic train wreck. I don’t think I will stick around to watch yours.
Wow-some lecture. Hope it made you feel better.
However the veracity with which you write kind of belies your position of being tolerant does it not? Especially since it is not, and never was your job, to tell me how to live my life. It’s none of your business. You sure pulled a lot of things that are not there from one post-must be nice to be so smart.
You do not know the first thing about me-or anyone else it seems.
“tell me how to live my life. It’s none of your business.”
Interesting turn of phrase there. You don’t want some stranger to tell you how to live your life, yet you feel free to tell millions of others how they should live theirs?
“Why gay guys are on fire to screw up your lives is beyond me.” Excuse me. How does it screw up your life?
Really, what business is it of yours if two consenting adults (who happen to be of the same sex) marry? If their union under the law achieves the same status as straight people – insurance, probate, visas and passports – to be viewed equally under the law?
It makes no logical sense. The fact that you don’t understand it is fine – to make millions of people pay for your lack of understanding isn’t.
Please keep in mind that there are millions of people in the US who do not understand your desire to live with a Japanese woman. Should that then be made illegal, because some people you’ve never met don’t understand it?
?????????????????
Spike,
No-you are correct. Gay marriage is really none of my business.
That said-I do believe there are some societal issues that need to be worked through if its really to work with out pain for both sides of the equation. Like it or not-the United States is really not ready for gay marriage: emotionally or legally.
Plus if it was just me-then you could simply write it off to what Chief Buck calls my “morally bankrupt and sleasy” lifestyle. However there are plenty of devoted and supposedly morally superior family men who don’t like the idea either and they vote in lots of states that want to make it against the law. Plus-like voting against Obama, there are plenty of people who say its not about race in public-but then pull the lever in the opposite direction for very personal reasons that have to to with the same types of discomfort that I have voiced here.
To “the same status as straight people – insurance, probate, visas and passports – to be viewed equally under the law?” requires an acceptance that does not quite exist yet and will require about two more generations to achieve. Otherwise comedians would be able to get away with telling gay jokes. Yet they do.
And why go all the way to challenging what some believe is a religious rite. Would not domestic partnerships-e.g. contractual agreements work just as well? Without all the emotional baggage attached.
Chief really makes being a “childless, partner-less Asian bar hopper with no responsibilites who endulges in mindless sex with barely legal women forced into degrading and dangerous life situations” sound so wrong. Of course, he fails to realize that’s what makes it feel so right. It’s only when you recognize that a situation is degrading and dangerous that you realize that it’s probably a lot of fun.
I leaned that from thirteen Thai hookers one magical evening and it’s a lesson that I’ll cherish for the rest of my life. You’d think that the heroin would have dulled it somewhat, but it didn’t.
As to the United States not being “ready for gay marriage: emotionally or legally,” I think that misses the point. Throughout its history, the United States wasn’t “ready” for any number of things, most of them involving race. The South wasn’t “ready” for the end of Jim Crow, but that didn’t stop the fact that ending it was a moral imperative.
You’re a navy man, Skippy. Just sixty years ago, the military argued that it wasn’t “ready” to allow black servicemen to to work alongside whites. President Truman, to his credit given the time and his background, didn’t give a shit what the military was “ready” for. President Clinton had a similiar opportunity, but he was a fucking coward.
Let’s say that you married your Significant Other. Just 41 years ago, the state of Virginia could have prosecuted you both for miscegenation. And the attorney general of Virginia went to the Supreme Court to argue that his state wasn’t “ready” to change that. The Racial Integrity Act of 1924 was seen as being that important to the continued good governance of the Commonwealth.
However, after the aptly named Loving v. Virginia changed that, no one really ever brought it up again. It turned out that racial integrity wasn’t as important as it was made out to be and people came to accept it just fine.
I suspect that the same is true of gay marriage.
Domestic partnerships would be fine, so long as the government got out of the marriage business altogether. If everyone had domestic partnership rights from the government and “marriage” were bestowed by churches, then you might have a point. But I think that we both know that’ll never happen.
I tend to view social issues through the prism of what educated folks call “compelling state interest.” I’m not particularly educated, so I call it the “Who Gives a Shit” rule. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one. If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t marry a homo. I can’t think of a compelling reason for the government or the people to stop either other than that the government and the people are awfully fucking stupid much of the time.
I’d love to go on, but this heroin won’t snort itself and the thirteen Thai hookers are starting to look bored.
hi
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good luck